What are you doing right now?

[EndOfTheEarth]

Besides posting on here and replying to this thread. Original credit for this goes back to Fate and Nathan on MX.

[Fake Fang]

http://www.max-dan-wiz.com/forum/topics/anybody-up-for-this?x=1&...

 

Trolololol.

[EndOfTheEarth]

Damn it, it's closed. I was about to jump in with an asinine counter-perspective to the theory behind your werewolf science...

[Fake Fang]

-sigh-

Let me explain.

Your God has made an imperfect world. This is partially our fault, but mostly the fault--or perhaps intention--of it's creator. You can deny it all you want, but the world we live in is not perfect, and if it had been from the beginning, this would not be the case.

Let me ask you: What is the cause of evil? Is it greed? Is it hatred? Perhaps. But what do those come from?

They come from the world's imperfection.

Because the world is imperfect, we must hurt each other. Because polio existed, Salk had to experiment on children to cure a disease that would have killed hundreds of thousands, and had done so in the past. Drugs are tested on animals, drugs that can save lives. Experiments are done on the innocent, experiments that hurt them, and yet experiments that make the lives of everyone else better. The world requires us to create pain in order to get rid of it. I'll grant you, if your God had not left us in an imperfect world, I would have no right to hurt others. But he did, and so I must if I wish to accumulate enough knowledge to bring about peace, relief to those in suffering.

To make matters worse, your God--your Jesus, your Yahweh, your Holy Ghost--he punishes us for being imperfect. He, who made us imperfect, views us as nothing more than ants, nothing more than vermin that he happens to be responsible for. The intellectual gap between us forces him to do so--we have no grasp of his being, and don't have the intelligence to even be considered ants before his eyes. He can never understand us, and as such treats us like a child treats the insects in his ant farm--he pokes us and prods us, baffled at how we don't do what he wants us to do, confused due to the alien difference between us. He, all good; we, with free will. He does not comprehend free will--how could he? It is just another calculation in his mind, just some more mathematical equations and algorithms that we can never understand, and he does this because he has none of the delusions that bind us, that make us human. He doesn't have any illusions of right and wrong--for he is bound by them, like a computer is bound by it's programs.

God is just a machine. He has no concept or forgiveness, merely a list of programs that tell him when to punish and when to, "Forgive." How else can he exist? If he is all Good, then he has no choice but to be all Good.

In other words, your, "God," has no right to tell me that choosing the lesser of two evil's is wrong. If he wants to swap places, I'd be glad to do so at any time. Let's see if he can do my job better. Let's see if he, stripped of his knowledge of the best outcome, can choose the right thing.

And if he sends innocent's to hell...if, by not believing in him, people damn themselves...then I do not see him as God. He is Satan--actually, no. Satan at least gives us a choice. God just gives us demands.

Without science and knowledge, humanity would be nowhere. I dare say that we'd be a lot better off without someone sending us to Hell. At least the pain I inflict on people ends--a God who tortures people who haven't done anything wrong for eternity is a lot worse than I am.

 

((The post I gave to Luna. Trolololololol.))

[EndOfTheEarth]

I'm smarter than Luna, and have a free evening.

Let us assume that God created the world perfectly imperfect; imagine designing a firework, the end-game is that the thing tears itself to pieces, which in most other theaters would be considered a failure, but for the sake of fireworks, it's a huge success.

Using this metaphor, imagine that God designed the universe like a giant firework; it's designed to fall apart with time. Even though this does not meet our definition of "perfect", it does meet the faulted-built universe definition of perfect. Therefore, when we do things wrong, it is still wrong, but it is also 'perfect'.

Granted, this perspective boils down right and wrong to a moral-less binary, but hey, under this theory, God is still perfect. :D

Now, how to fix the moral-less binary part? For this we can argue that God knew all along. 

How? We argue that God knew this information inherently--sort of like how getting punched in the nose is painful, and you don't need a conscious moral or philosophical background to know that you're unhappy with what you're experiencing. We can make the argument here that an understanding of right and wrong spontaneously generated along with God.

So God is perfect, and he is right, even if the action appears to us to be morally wrong. :D :D :D

I don't really agree with this; I used this argument to derail my philosophy class a year and a half ago, and I want to see how you do with it. 

[nathan_p]

And Luna's head explodes...

[Fake Fang]

Interesting hypothesis, although I think claiming that God is perfect, it's just that he wants to kill us doesn't really contradict my, "Divine Asshole," theory.

 

My counterargument is: Why does God do this? Is it because he enjoys watching it? How can a being like God feel pleasure? Or is he programmed to create fireworks, like a machine?

 

My personal theory of God is that he's essentially double-checking his work. Imagine you're all knowing. How do you test this? By setting a universe up and watching it go, seeing if it behaves like you expect it to. God is basically testing himself, seeing if his omniscience isn't just a lie. Imagine that you're God: You wake up one day, with knowledge of everything, power over everything. How do you know this to be the case? By testing it. Atom by atom, bit by bit. My theory is that he's running through every possible universe, seeing if he can create it, seeing if he can manipulate it, seeing if he can predict it.

 

He's flexing his muscles, if you will. Testing his strength.

 

The problem with your theory is that it essentially says, "Right is what God does and wrong is what he doesn't do." I'll grant you that this might as well be the case, but it's more boring than my theory. Your theory gets us nowhere. We never get beyond, "God defines perfect and morality so he's perfect and moral." Which we already knew.

 

So there.

[EndOfTheEarth]

You missed the point of my first paragraph entirely. You're assuming right and wrong exits from a subjective human viewpoint. In my argument, they do not. Right and wrong exists from God's viewpoint alone. In short, it contradicts your "Divine Asshole" theory through the assumption that in the grand scheme of things, your opinion on god, as a human observer, is meaningless.

As for why God does this? Since I've already played with this idea in the prior part of my argument, let's assume that God also does this due to an automatic natural process, and produces imperfect universes with the same natural or automatic process that we produce blood cells (which, by the way, are also arguably imperfect, as they spit out their nuclei shortly after creation and then need to be replaced constantly), or stomach acid (which is damaging to other parts of our digestive system) or snot (self-explanatory).

Again, in sum, this assumes a God that creates complex structures as part of an unconscious natural process, rather than a conscious effort. So your line "Right is what God does and wrong is what he doesn't do." is a misinterpretation of my point--the moral system exists regardless of God's actions, just like your lymphatic system exists regardless of what you decided to watch on TV this afternoon, with the morals being produced without conscious effort either way.

Alternately, you could remove some of your blood and kill it with rubbing alcohol but your body will produce blood regardless of your conscious actions. Similarly, God can act hypocritically, and yet still form the basis of "perfect and correct" morals.

Now, why do we need to get beyond proving God as being perfect and moral? Isn't that the point of the argument. Is God perfect? According to my presented argument, yes. Is the universe perfect? Again, yes. Are the morals perfect? Yes. The questions have been answered.

Or, rather, where else do you want to go?

[Omega]

One of our cows, living just down the road now, has had a calf.

Problem: Said cow would have been 5 months old, and was not yet weaned when she got pregnant.

[EndOfTheEarth]

O_o

Makes you wonder about the limits of natural reproduction cycles, doesn't it?

[Omega]

Yeah.

Either that or she's a bit mutant, like Lina Medina.

[Contradiction]

My mother is actually trying to convince me to skip health class unexcused in order to watch/help my friend build a marble rollercoaster in the cafeteria.

omfg

[Xuut]

Got a 96 on the Bio test on plants I was pretty sure I failed. I actually did not understand half the questions. Normally, I suck at MC so whatever happened is REALLY AWESOME. Apparently I am the first student to questions why I did so well. I thought he scanned the wrong sheet or something...

So far my Bio unit test marks are awesome. :D